tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post7734065587970540283..comments2023-11-05T04:53:26.179-05:00Comments on The Gospels of The Gash: UNAUTHORISED DOWNLOADS - A DISCOURSELee M. Bartow (AKA Leech)http://www.blogger.com/profile/14518468440413579910noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-43796308594572935392009-05-06T07:26:00.000-04:002009-05-06T07:26:00.000-04:00In Tympanik's case, as far as I know, it was Jairu...In Tympanik's case, as far as I know, it was Jairus' decision. <br /><br />My rationale for possibly trying a similar stunt in the coming months (sorry for the lack of details here but everything's sketchy at this point) is that all the material will end up in the Russian MP3 sites anyway so one might as well give it away for free and hope to dent <I>their</I> business while hoping that our end product, with a few extras that can't be turned into digital files, is good enough to warrant purchase.<br /><br />But that's a whole other subject, to be discussed another day... :)Connexionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01150977371288980242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-73997162760511650992009-05-06T00:02:00.000-04:002009-05-06T00:02:00.000-04:00just as an addendum to my last comment, i equate t...just as an addendum to my last comment, i equate tympanik releasing a digital download as companion to a physical cd with labels that include a cd or digital files with vinyl releases, and i'm skeptical as to whether this cuts down on illegal file sharing. in all likelihood it makes it easier.Lee M. Bartow (AKA Leech)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14518468440413579910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-87684073829846574712009-05-05T23:58:00.000-04:002009-05-05T23:58:00.000-04:00"According to Synctank it was a very good seller f..."According to Synctank it was a very good seller for Tympanik, one of the best sellers of the label when it came out. Jury's out on whether it was successful in spite of the free download option or because of it."<br /><br />sounds great, but as you're obviously well aware, there's a difference between someone unrelated to the artist posting a free download of a previously released album, and a label releasing a digital copy of an album for free in concurrence with a physical cd for sale.<br /><br />i'd be interested in knowing how this would fit with what ps has said about having to 'hunt down' a particular release with the intentions of buying it.<br /><br />as i said earlier, it's a monumentally simple task to look at an artist's website, myspace profile, blog, and other online presences (all of those links are easily found via a single google search and appear in the listings well ahead of any torrent sites), and from there to find locations from whence to purchase releases.<br /><br />i wonder if potential listeners might prefer to download the free album directly from tympanik, or if they might opt to find it on third party locations. <br />according to his argument, it's ostensibly more difficult to track down the original source.Lee M. Bartow (AKA Leech)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14518468440413579910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-11523000847638753722009-05-05T20:50:00.000-04:002009-05-05T20:50:00.000-04:00"for the record i do think you are completly entit..."for the record i do think you are completly entitled to asking for removal of a link to your material if it's infringing your intellectual copyright, and that they should comply or get sued. it's part of the current law and it should be followed as such regardless of personal beliefs. that was never a question at stake from my behalf."<br /><br />Guess that pretty much sorts it, my dear fli<B>ps</B>... There's a few inconsistencies in your argumentation but Leech's blog is not the place for a private discussion so we can exchange ideas one of these days over some beers or black stuff, if you're up for it. <br /><br />"MY FUCKING GOD, ARE YOU ALL LIVING IN THE DARK AGES? AM I THE ONLY ONE IN 2009?!?"<br /><br />I'd say you're trying to force a Utopian model into reality but, for the moment, it's just a model and a Utopia, nothing more. The Dead Kennedys put it quite succintly: "Every theory has its holes when real life steps in". That's valid both for both sides of the discussion but, for simplicity's sake, I'll just say "let's see what the future brings".<br /><br />One more detail here and perhaps playing Devil's advocate for a bit... Ad.ver.sary's debut album "Bone Music" was released, at the artists's request, both as a CD on Tympanik Audio and as a <I>free</I> 128kbps MP3 download from the artists site. According to Synctank it was a very good seller for Tympanik, one of the best sellers of the label when it came out. Jury's out on whether it was successful in spite of the free download option or because of it.<br /><br />Personally? Finances allowing, I am somewhat willing to take my chances to test this in the coming months... ;-/Connexionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01150977371288980242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-56341934377155231102009-05-05T17:55:00.000-04:002009-05-05T17:55:00.000-04:00"for the record i do think you are completly entit..."for the record i do think you are completly entitled to asking for removal of a link to your material if it's infringing your intellectual copyright, and that they should comply or get sued. it's part of the current law and it should be followed as such regardless of personal beliefs. that was never a question at stake from my behalf."<br /><br />being that this is the core of the issue, the primary defensive position of llort's arguments, as well as the impetus for this particular blog post, then there was no need for you to proffer any other suggestions or opinions such as the ones you've displayed here.<br /><br />i found my album on llort's blog, asked him to remove it, and was then drawn into an extended discourse where he defended his philosophy and 'right' to 'support' my work by facilitating its theft.<br /><br />end of story.Lee M. Bartow (AKA Leech)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14518468440413579910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-56844265967633533462009-05-05T17:23:00.000-04:002009-05-05T17:23:00.000-04:00oh, hadnt read mig's comment properly, couple idio...oh, hadnt read mig's comment properly, couple idiosincrisies with reality left to iron in there:<br /><br />"Also, one might find it funny (or perhaps hypocritical) that someone that has arguments such as yours paradoxically releases work (yours and other people's) mostly under Creative Commons BY-NC-ND 3.0. To be coherent with this 'new model' of yours, you should dedicate everything to the public domain because not only does information tend to be spread freely but people have a tendency to modify it, regardless of the author's wishes..."<br /><br />i never pledged for theft. there is a large difference between non profit distribution and plagiarism / commercial use without permission. the only reason i have nc-nd is to have a legal backbone to stand against others getting money off others work. (well, to you there probably isnt much i guess)<br /><br />to me this is quite a different scenario than non profit online distribution. and i must also reiterate that i fully respect and urge others to equally respect when that it is the authors wish to try to control. i find it moronic but i respect it and simply dont listen or care about such music.<br /><br />i just find it disturbingly naive and retrogade for 2009.<br /><br />but if you want to throw hypocrisy around then i guess all of you will stop listening to releases before buying them. right?<br /><br />"If you see it objectively, print runs of 500-1000 copies are hardly massive editions and are pretty exclusive already."<br /><br />exclusively retrograde. yes, they are. even asking for money for making available milestones of the release would have been a brigther idea that would profit alot more then limited editions of anything in 2009.<br /><br />"It seems you could use some perspective yourself. The only reason NIN, Radiohead and Neubauten managed to pull those stunts is because they are established artists with extremely wide fanbases."<br /><br />i said learn not copy and hope for the best...<br /><br />"Wide enough to make this kind of market stunts workable and live off them. Not to mention that, as a consequence of being established acts, all of them have publicity networks that the average underground artist could only dream of."<br /><br />market stunts on the internet are so hard to pay and invest upon, indeed.<br /><br />MY FUCKING GOD, ARE YOU ALL LIVING IN THE DARK AGES? AM I THE ONLY ONE IN 2009?!?<br /><br />yes, you are indie, you dont control mass media, use web 2.0, use guerilla marketing, if you're investing in a product get off your fucking ass an promote it properly to the people who will want it and their mother. if you're an indie musician or label owner it's _your job_ to find ways to get the album to the person for fucks sake, be inventive.<br /><br />im sorry to be the one teaching basic economics but printing 1000 copies, sending them to a few reviewers and hoping the world might send you some change your way in time for the next album is not acceptable for a business model. <br /><br />it's just copying a model in an already overcrowded industry, you need to diferentiate and expand yourself somehow to survive.<br /><br />"It's not about 'information exchange', it's about an artist's rights to decide how his work is distributed."<br /><br />i never claimed against it. if the artist doesnt want his work distributed online i believe no one should distribute it.<br /><br />"I bet you wouldn't like it (and perhaps even would cry foul) if someone slapped one of your tracks, without your knowledge or consent in a compilation or if it was used as soundtrack in a successful film and you didn't see a single penny for your work."<br /><br />it already happened. it's a bitch. it does not hoewhever go against my main point as far as im concearned.<br /><br />"But hey, information travels freely, doesn't it...?"<br /><br />it does not apply in the same manner, you are throwing together different concepts, muddled together in your head by your devotion to capitalism and sense of rightousness.<br /><br />i dont share your view on that regard. again, please consult the work of lessig, i clearly cannot explain my vision any further then what i have already tried, his videos might.Filipe 'ps' Cruzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15109510065869644936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-84758596909024991342009-05-05T16:23:00.000-04:002009-05-05T16:23:00.000-04:00*will buy the albums*will buy the albumsFilipe 'ps' Cruzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15109510065869644936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-50098556875286286052009-05-05T16:22:00.000-04:002009-05-05T16:22:00.000-04:00hehehe, well, i'm sorry but i still disagree with ...hehehe, well, i'm sorry but i still disagree with you. not much more i can say.<br /><br />for the record i do think you are completly entitled to asking for removal of a link to your material if it's infringing your intellectual copyright, and that they should comply or get sued. it's part of the current law and it should be followed as such regardless of personal beliefs. that was never a question at stake from my behalf.<br /><br />but i still think you're being naive and acomodated to an overdone business model. but i guess thats why we run our labels under diferent philosophies to begin with.<br /><br />eitherway, it's been an interesting discussion. good luck for your project and label. hope to see you perform live in the future. :) and be sure that i will the albums i have previously listened from you. :)Filipe 'ps' Cruzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15109510065869644936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-74415983561652453852009-05-05T16:07:00.000-04:002009-05-05T16:07:00.000-04:00"one does learn a thing or two about producing and..."one does learn a thing or two about producing and promoting an album after a 7 years or running a label."<br /><br />wow, 7 whole years.<br />well, i have been recording and performing music for nearly 20 years, and i've been running a label for 12 years now. i'll tell you what i have learned:<br /><br />i have learned that when i make a financial investment in order to produce a release, with the intention of selling that release, and then some schmuck comes along and uploads that release as a free download from torrents or blogs, that constitutes a facilitation of the theft of MY intellectual property.<br /><br />legally, i have every right to:<br />1) ask them to remove the download<br />2) sue them for financial damages<br /><br />it makes no difference if they are working from behind a philosophy and send me an in-depth explanation of why they believe that my art (or rather the components of that art that can be reduced to transmittable data) should be free.<br /><br />it makes no difference if they BELIEVE that perhaps i might want to look at some other ways of functioning, or suggest that changing my model to accommodate their belief system (such as you have suggested) might garner me some peace of mind.<br /><br />"i'm sorry if you cannot grasp the concept of someone sanely running something non profit for years on end. or if it might seem completly oposite to your ideal of a real music industry. but it exists.<br /><br />some people do want to distribute music just for the promotional sake. not for money."<br /><br />the bottom line is, AGAIN, that none of this concerns me. i don't give two shits about how YOU operate your label. as i've said before, you're making no sacrifice so you don't stand to lose anything.<br /><br />it's incredible how far people will go to defend a groundless point of view. <br />by giving something away for free that does not belong to them, the people who post unauthorised downloads are not in fact doing ANYTHING to 'support' artists or their music.Lee M. Bartow (AKA Leech)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14518468440413579910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-54495107237485167632009-05-05T15:48:00.000-04:002009-05-05T15:48:00.000-04:00"i believe you are accomodated to the notion that ..."i believe you are accomodated to the notion that capitalism is the only way of interaction, while there are plenty of social interactions operating beyond capitalism already. some of which would be terribly tainted if money was even involved in the equation."<br /><br />sorry to break it to you, but this is not a philosophical matter, but a matter of cause and effect. the trouble with your side of the argument is that it relies heavily, and almost entirely, on hypotheticals, abstractions, and ideologies in regards to how things SHOULD be, as opposed to the reality of the situation at hand.<br /><br />unfortunately for you, we're not dealing with abstract concepts of how the capitalism modality can or should be altered. in fact it's indicative of a fundamental lack of comprehension of the entire basis of this discussion. <br /><br />this concept, that you and those like you who are so strongly supporting, that music can be transmitted and replicated as mere information, so therefore it MUST be 'free,' is at its very core an indefensible position.<br /><br />let's say you manufacture a product, which requires a particular financial investment to do so, with the strict intention of selling that product.<br /><br />a customer purchases that product and then very easily makes a series of copies of that product, which are identical to the original product in every way -except for the fact that they were not manufactured by you - and then gives that product away for free to an exponentially larger number of people (i won't call them 'consumers' because that is a title reserved for paying customers) than to whom the original product could have been sold.<br /><br />as a result of this, because it was subsequently impossible for you to recoup your original financial investment, you can no longer continue to produce your product, or any like it, and have to terminate your business.<br /><br />it is a simple matter of cause and effect. <br /><br />this isn't about your opinion that, if what myself and the hundreds of thousands of millions of people who engage in the capitalist modality are doing isn't working for us, that we SHOULD go and make an attempt at altering our methodology.<br /><br />goods and services most definitely CAN and ARE replicated in every corner of life. <br /><br />for every lawyer there are ten thousand other lawyers who can do the same job, possibly for more, possibly for less. <br /><br />for every dishwasher there are millions of other dishwashers.<br /><br />for every car dealership there are a million other car dealerships.<br /><br />if you don't like the prices at your local large grocery store chain, you go down the road a few miles to the next one. or you go to the mom and pop organic market on the highway.<br /><br />if you don't like the particular brand off coffee that your wife buys, then you go and buy another brand of coffee.<br /><br />for every tangible good and every service available, there are a trillion more out there that could potentially serve your purposes.<br /><br />the most overwhelming difference between all of these goods and services is the fact that none of them can be transmitted via the internet and recombined into something physical on the other side that can then continue to be passed round and round ad infinitum.<br /><br />the failure of your side of the discussion, what you and others like you fail to comprehend to such a bizarre depth, is that 'art' does not inherently fall under the all-encompassing wing of 'information,' simply because it can be extracted from its physical medium and tranmitted, does not make it the intrinsic right of everyone who comes into contact with it to become a distributor of that information.<br /><br />similarly to what i've said earlier, you can't walk into an art gallery, take a photographic print off the wall, and tell the management that you're just going to take it to the local copy shop to run off some large format prints for your mates. they'll have you on the ground before you get ten feet from the door.<br /><br />the fact that myself and a great many artists of varying stature don't have the benefit of a highly-paid legal department standing behind them to go after offenders does not justify the actions of those who post unathorised downloads.<br /><br />a vast majority of artists simply feel helpless against this ever-expanding sphere, where people such as yourself will so staunchly stand their ground, making irrelevant and ludicrous arguments, while flying in the face of the obvious and twisting logic to suit their own ends.<br /><br />there is a profound difference between 'sharing culture' and taking someone's intellectual property and making it available while subverting their own best interests - all the while providing yourself with empty justifications based solely on your own perception.Lee M. Bartow (AKA Leech)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14518468440413579910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-22927927546388926132009-05-05T15:33:00.000-04:002009-05-05T15:33:00.000-04:00leech: and perhaps someone should also enlighten y...leech: and perhaps someone should also enlighten you that we have pressed limited physical copies on enoughrecords multiple times, most of them to give away during local concerts and festivals i co-organized.<br /><br />one does learn a thing or two about producing and promoting an album after a 7 years or running a label.<br /><br />i'm sorry if you cannot grasp the concept of someone sanely running something non profit for years on end. or if it might seem completly oposite to your ideal of a real music industry. but it exists. <br /><br />some people do want to distribute music just for the promotional sake. not for money.<br /><br />i dont want to convert you, just make sure you're aware we're not all clueless tree hugging commie hippies on drugs.Filipe 'ps' Cruzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15109510065869644936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-25945767680630267042009-05-05T15:25:00.000-04:002009-05-05T15:25:00.000-04:00"ps continues to operate under a delusion wherein ..."ps continues to operate under a delusion wherein it is more difficult to 'hunt down' a release from its original source - whether it be the artist or the label - which is so absolutely absurd i am at a loss for how to respond to such a phenomenally nescient perception of reality."<br /><br />perhaps you should reflect upon it instead of reacting to it.<br /><br />i am howhever interested in a little social experiment which i been conjuring in my head for a few months now:<br /><br />how much would you charge a label to conceed them rights for life rigths to distribute your music non exclusive and non profit? i would be interested in promoting your work and am curious how that action it would affect your sales of other work you have available for purchase.<br /><br />eitherway it would be a good promotion for the other artists in my label and i would be personally willing to pay you for the test. <br /><br />perhaps it could even help you realize my point of view. even if it doesnt, it might be worth your while to have more people legally listening to your music then not buying copies of limited editions. as in, your work is being more heard, legally, and you still got paid to make it available.<br /><br />please consider it seriously and let me know your thoughts on the matter.Filipe 'ps' Cruzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15109510065869644936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-90697533332053658862009-05-05T15:16:00.000-04:002009-05-05T15:16:00.000-04:00goods and services != information and data
goods ...goods and services != information and data<br /><br />goods and services cannot be replicated. information is copied inherently during the distribution.<br /><br />there is a large difference. i urge you to read the work of lessig for example.<br /><br />i believe you are accomodated to the notion that capitalism is the only way of interaction, while there are plenty of social interactions operating beyond capitalism already. some of which would be terribly tainted if money was even involved in the equation.<br /><br />sharing culture, for me atleast, is one of those scenarios. you obviously disagree and it's your choice to do so but you should atleast note that a great majority of the population in this world equally disagrees. and we're not all criminals without a sense of honour, sorry to break it to you.Filipe 'ps' Cruzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15109510065869644936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-22989235216177693782009-05-05T14:51:00.000-04:002009-05-05T14:51:00.000-04:00Connexion - thanks for the incredibly insightful a...Connexion - thanks for the incredibly insightful and intelligent post. you show a clear comprehension of the subjaect at hand, while ps - whose post unfortunately comes after yours - shows an utter lack of understanding.<br />and yes, i was prepared to make the same point in regards to his status as a so-called label owner. since his releases are made available on a strictly digital basis, he is not capable of comprehending the nuances involved in having to pay to produce albums. what he refers to as an archaic model that never worked in the first place is in fact a model that has been working for the entire span of history in which music and art have been made commercially available.<br /><br />"Bottom line: if one likes an artist's work which is available for a price one should pay to enjoy it. If one can't pay, save to afford it or live without it."<br /><br />precisely the point. this idea that music should be free, no matter how staunchly supported by these self righteous justifications, is absolutely incorrect. if i am putting the effort and expense into producing releases, and people don't purchase them, then the entire reason for producing these releases is subverted, and i should cease to continue.<br /><br />ps uses the examples of radiohead and nine inch nails, both acts are million-selling, mainstream artists with tremendous financial machines behind them. <br />they took the initiative to remove themselves from the common model of major label oppression after decades of having functioned within that realm and generating tremendous amounts of income with the benefit of nearly limitless merchandising and advertising budgets behind them.<br /><br />making a financially-based comparison between ntt and nin is as ludicrous as the belief that art should be free because it can be transmitted as information.<br /><br />i defy you to walk into a gallery and tell the curator that you're going to walk out with one of the exhibits because, as a work of art, it belongs to everyone.<br /><br />ps continues to operate under a delusion wherein it is more difficult to 'hunt down' a release from its original source - whether it be the artist or the label - which is so absolutely absurd i am at a loss for how to respond to such a phenomenally nescient perception of reality.Lee M. Bartow (AKA Leech)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14518468440413579910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-50594406536476038742009-05-05T14:50:00.000-04:002009-05-05T14:50:00.000-04:00"adapting to a new reality instead of complaining ..."adapting to a new reality instead of complaining about an archaic model that never worked to begin with."<br /><br />Bullshit. It's the same business model that underpins all human interactions and which is based on honesty and trust between those who supply goods and services and those who may which to benefit from said goods and services. This new 'model' which you refer to, which passes in great part for not respecting an author's rights to his work is paramount to theft. <br /><br />Also, one might find it funny (or perhaps hypocritical) that someone that has arguments such as yours paradoxically releases work (yours and other people's) mostly under Creative Commons BY-NC-ND 3.0. To be coherent with this 'new model' of yours, you should dedicate everything to the public domain because not only does information tend to be spread freely but people have a tendency to modify it, regardless of the author's wishes... <br /><br />"get your revenue instead from exclusivity work."<br /><br />If you see it objectively, print runs of 500-1000 copies are hardly massive editions and are pretty exclusive already. <br /><br />"havent you learned anything from nin, radiohead or neubaten?"<br /><br />It seems you could use some perspective yourself. The only reason NIN, Radiohead and Neubauten managed to pull those stunts is because they are established artists with extremely wide fanbases. Wide enough to make this kind of market stunts workable and live off them. Not to mention that, as a consequence of being established acts, all of them have publicity networks that the average underground artist could only dream of.<br /><br />It's not about 'information exchange', it's about an artist's rights to decide how <I>his</I> work is distributed. <br /><br />I bet you wouldn't like it (and perhaps even would cry foul) if someone slapped one of your tracks, <I>without your knowledge or consent</I> in a compilation or if it was used as soundtrack in a successful film and you didn't see a single penny for your work. But hey, information travels freely, doesn't it...?Connexionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01150977371288980242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-72433512163941217182009-05-05T14:24:00.000-04:002009-05-05T14:24:00.000-04:00i think that more important than if i truly get th...i think that more important than if i truly get the point behind this discussion or not, is making a stand in an attempt to have you realize that you should be adapting to a new reality instead of complaining about an archaic model that never worked to begin with. a reality in which you already have been living for quite a few years now.<br /><br />there is no control of information exchange.<br /><br />there isnt. people will exhange data, it will happen, you cannot control it.<br /><br />there are people with alot more political and economic power then you who been trying to impose that exact ideal. and still fail. they fail, not because we're all shameless criminals, but because information exchange in itself tends to be spread.<br /><br />culturally you seem to accept it between two friends and call it word of mouth, but you don't yet accept it between two strangers, and call it theft. i accept it openly, as does llort.<br /><br />i urge you, as a fan that i truly am of your work, to please consider other models of making ends meat out of your music creation passion.<br /><br />if you are identifying your main problem as people prefering the easy way to access things for free and directly download between them instead of having to hunt down and pay you instead, then why dont you endorse p2p services and online radio? get your revenue instead from exclusivity work. devise sponsorship programs to pool for a new album release. there are a myriad of new ideas brewing around on this subject matter.<br /><br />havent you learned anything from nin, radiohead or neubaten? depending on old models where you expect control over information exhange is just plain being naive in 2009.<br /><br />be invented, original and subversive to the original capitalist model of the industry that clearly is failing you. fans will like that and be much more eager to support your endeavour.<br /><br />people are more inclined to contribute to a creative act, not a distributive method. use that to your advantage.<br /><br />i am merely hoping to see more of your work in the future. and not watching you still being bitter over people trying to discover and promote your work regardless if you are the one in control over the process or not.<br /><br />just a couple cents, take them or drop them, up to you.Filipe 'ps' Cruzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15109510065869644936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-9571982571289808042009-05-05T13:39:00.000-04:002009-05-05T13:39:00.000-04:00I've kept quiet for most of this discussion for th...I've kept quiet for most of this discussion for the simple reason that I don't have much to add to it anyway and others have put things quite eloquently already. I fall into the "if I like it and if I can afford it, I'll buy it" category and have been for ages now. I used to fall into the "download and if I like it I buy it, otherwise I delete it" but have stopped doing so because I already get more than enough music samples due to my extra-curricular activity as a <A HREF="http://www.connexionbizarre.net" REL="nofollow">webzine manager</A>.<br /><br />So, picking up a few random points here... If an artist does not wish to see his works distributed for free without his explicit consent, any 'public distribution' links should be closed. Simple as that and there shouldn't even be a philosophical argument about it. It's the artist's work, to be distributed as he/she sees fit. <br /><br />Now, whether there is any usefulness to free download distribution, personally I think that in some cases it can be a mixed bag. While there was research that showed an increase in sales correlated with an increase in illegal downloads (Dutch article, don't have the link, sorry) there seems to be a growing mentality of entitlement (well described in <A HREF="http://toddiovision.wordpress.com/2009/04/21/random-music-thoughts/" REL="nofollow">Todd Durrant's</A> blog) as well a mentality that culture and art are a 'right' and, as such, should be 'free' - interpreting 'free' as "free beer" instead of "freedom" - and, consequently, should not be restrained by the shackles of capitalist society (or some other crap). Which, let's faced is just crap reasoning to feel morally justified at doing something which is, effectively, <I>wrong</I> (avoiding the term illegal here). <br /><br />Art and culture are not essential goods and services (like healthcare, etc) so why should they be free when basic services (water, electricity, etc) aren't? The restaurant analogy (not Llort's version, mind you) is more than apt. Unfortunately, artists can't live on air and good intentions alone and their work functions like the business model of many other liberal profession (doctors, lawyers, consultants, store & restaurant owners, IT technicians, etc): artist sets up shop, artist advertises his work, public likes => public pays, public doesn't like => public doesn't pay and artist may have to find some other line of work. <br /><br />Bottom line: if one likes an artist's work which is available for a price one should pay to enjoy it. If one can't pay, save to afford it or live without it. It's not essential to one's well-being. Simple as that. <br /><br />Additional point here (since I seem to be going into a diatribe anyway) is the "chewing-gum mentality" of consuming music as background noise (sort of like listening to the radio). There's so much information one can process and that applies to art as well - appreciating a work of art always requires some time and dedication no matter how little. Taking the example of music downloaders, it is possible to quickly accumulate much more music than can be listened (and appreciated) comfortably by any sane human. Speaking from my experience downloading netlabel releases and from watching the MO of a couple of acquaintances who were pretty hefty downloaders, most of the downloaded stuff will be listened to once (if that) and just sit on a harddrive gathering electronic dust. So much for art in there...<br /><br />Just an aside, perhaps someone should point out that ps is not a label owner, he's a <A HREF="http://enoughrecords.scene.org/" REL="nofollow">netlabel owner</A>, if one wants to be precise about it.Connexionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01150977371288980242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-78823995533971233822009-05-05T09:10:00.000-04:002009-05-05T09:10:00.000-04:00i received an email from niko of Some Place Else, ...i received an email from niko of <A HREF="http://www.someplaceelse.net/" REL="nofollow">Some Place Else</A>, referring me to the following post on his blog:<br /><br /><br />"On unauthorized downloading<br /><br /><br />Leech of Navicon Torture Technologies blogs about something I’ve been thinking a lot over the last few months. Myself, acting as all three roles of the artist, the record label and the consumer, I’ve yet to come up with definite answers on how to deal with the issue. But what I know is that while our (being myself and fellow artists on Some Place Else) music is apparently more and more loved, respected and listened to than ever before, the actual record sales are getting noticably worse than before. Something is wrong with the equation.<br /><br />It’s not that we’re making the art for money. But as long as the world is run by money, some amount of it is also required in order to be able to create and produce the art in question. It seems music is underrated these days: For many, it’s too much to pay 10-15 euros for a music album, but at the same time one has no problem spending more than that for beer in a bar. (And end up with a hangover…)<br /><br />Not that I’m eager on blaming “illegal” downloaders. In a way it’s understandable: as long as it’s faster and easier to download something via a blog or p2p than actually taking the trouble and ordering & paying for it, people will do it regardless of whether it supports the artist or not. And of course there’s the bonus that the easy way doesn’t cost anything. Let me add I’ve downloaded a handful of albums myself, however most if not all of them have been out of print for years and otherwise only found on ebay for three-figure sums (none which would go to the original artist of course).<br /><br />Personally, I don’t know how to solve this thing. I’m considering, among various other ideas, the option of going the free download route for my musick, but that is likely to prevent me from affording to produce the physical edition. How then satisfy the people who still prefer the physical product? How to fund the various things required to keep on making music? Double the prices? I don’t think so. If there’s anyone with ideas regarding the issue I’d be eager to hear about them. Comments welcome."Lee M. Bartow (AKA Leech)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14518468440413579910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-15787682694135521332009-05-05T00:38:00.000-04:002009-05-05T00:38:00.000-04:00"This is just how our society is like in this day ..."This is just how our society is like in this day and age. Not much you or i or much of anyone in this earth can do about it. It's called capitalism, you were born in it, you will probably die in it, it's unfair to loads of people, loads others try to play it smart as often as they can, all you can do is get used to it."<br /><br />oh and by the way, i'm not sure what economics degree you hold, but capitalism boils down to this:<br />i make a product, you buy it from me. i continue to make the product.<br /><br />i make a product. you steal my product. i can no longer afford to make the product. no more product.<br /><br />there's no room in capitalism for people buying something and then giving it away for free to thousands of people. that in fact subverts the very notion of capitalism.<br /><br />capitalist societies even have a word for it. it's called theft.Lee M. Bartow (AKA Leech)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14518468440413579910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-12854853861351607002009-05-04T23:32:00.000-04:002009-05-04T23:32:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lee M. Bartow (AKA Leech)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14518468440413579910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-28731113072974050892009-05-04T23:26:00.000-04:002009-05-04T23:26:00.000-04:00to ps -
sorry to disappoint you, but your essay s...to ps -<br /><br />sorry to disappoint you, but your essay speaks volumes of your ignorance of the situation.<br /><br />like Llort, you've glossed over the core of the issue and applied your particular personal experience to an issue that is not about the random individual who downloads an album and then 'might' go ahead and buy more releases by the same artist.<br /><br />the primary argument of people like Llort is that by posting albums for free, they are supporting the artists and their music by doing so.<br /><br />what you fail to recognise is that while you may have found out about ntt because of illegal and unauthorised free downloads, you have not (or have you?) gone the extra step of posting albums for others to download for free.<br /><br />furthermore, people who post unauthorised downloads are contributing to an environment that removes all sense of accountability and respect for the artists' best interests, such as your comment:<br /><br />"So, i'm sorry, i really love your work, but your speech is BS, if you can't afford a life as a musician 9 to 17, either get a day job or sell out occasionaly to make ends meat. Whining on the internet that no one is paying you for your work will only get you backlash, for each sale you'll make you'll have lost quite a few others."<br /><br />again, you've completely missed the point. this isn't about whether i can 'afford a life' as a musician, this is about the fact that people who post illegal downloads and subvert the interests of the artists, while under the delusion that what they are doing in some way 'promotes' or 'helps' or 'supports' the music/the artists are fostering an atmosphere wherein labels and artists could potentially be forced to cease their activities.<br /><br />additionally, there is a PROFOUND difference between 'word of mouth' and 'illegal downloads,' just as there is a PROFOUND difference between burning a copy of a cd for a few of your buddies and posting an album in it's entirety to a blog or torrent seed within weeks of its release, as has been the case with my most recent album.<br /><br />to tell me: <br /><br />"Haven't gotten around to buying any records yet simply because i haven't ran into them for sale anywhere. And yes, i haven't really bothered hard enough to hunt them down on the internet, they are probably findable for afordable prices, and yes i deniflty should have bothered by now (it certainly would help my point shitloads right now)" <br /><br />- a ludicrous statement in and of itself - (labels and distributors are just as easily located through a single google search, which in fact points to multiple points of purchase before any links to download sites even appear). <br /><br />yes, it would have helped your (and Llort's) point a hell of a lot more if you had actually paid for anything, and the simple audacity you show by posting this comment on my blog while portraying yourself a 'fan' when you've never done anything that genuinely supports my work confounds me, ESPECIALLY because you yourself are an artist and label owner.<br /><br />"But like Llort, i believe you're doing yourself a diservice when you prefer rather not let anyone listen to your sounds unless they pay you."<br /><br />again, to correct you: this is not a question of telling people they have no right to listen to an artist if they don't pay them.<br /><br />the entire point of this discussion is the fact that people who post unauthorised, illegal, free downloads of albums and believe that what they are doing 'supports music' are operating under a fairly obvious delusion, while contributing to a scenario in which they could be doing more harm than good for artists and labels.<br /><br />i found one of my albums on Llort's blog and asked him to remove it. rather than doing so, Llort opted to explain his personal philosophy, and why what he was doing by offering something that was not his to give away in the first place, was somehow 'supporting' me, when in fact what he is doing is the polar opposite of 'supporting' anything, other than his belief that he is lending his helping hand to the great cause of music...<br /><br />by letting people steal it.Lee M. Bartow (AKA Leech)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14518468440413579910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-789769457631365212009-05-04T19:23:00.000-04:002009-05-04T19:23:00.000-04:00i'm an artist and label owner. i agree with Llort ...i'm an artist and label owner. i agree with Llort on his point of view.<br /><br />I love NTT. Haven't gotten around to buying any records yet simply because i haven't ran into them for sale anywhere. And yes, i haven't really bothered hard enough to hunt them down on the internet, they are probably findable for afordable prices, and yes i deniflty should have bothered by now (it certainly would help my point shitloads right now).<br /><br />But I would defnitly buy some NTT if i would run into them at a store nowdays, as would i also go and check a gig if i happened to see it announced somewhere affordable. As i have done with many other artists and projects in the past. I have vinyls stacked away, which i never even played, since i don't even own a vinyl player, and i have cds stacked away at home in a corner still in their plastic wrappings, i don't need to unwrap them, i already have the mp3s, my stereo won't even play cds properly anymore anyways. i just bought them for the sake of supporting the artist and the label i adore. Unfortunatly i'm not a rich person, wish i could support all projects imediatly with free kudos, i try to do this by passing word of mouth. I don't have time to run a sharing blog but i never usually mind passing a folder of an album to a friend who is curious to know a project. You should probably be aware that this has been happening since the dawn of music age, way before the industry was ever invented.<br /><br />But one thing is for sure: I would never even consider buying your records if i hadn't downloaded and listen to them first on the internet when that friend of mine recommmended it to me. And i would probably not ever be looking out for your name in a venue nearby. Or telling my mates NTT is fucking awesome when they ask me for projects in the vein of your work.<br /><br />So, i'm sorry, i really love your work, but your speech is BS, if you can't afford a life as a musician 9 to 17, either get a day job or sell out occasionaly to make ends meat. Whining on the internet that no one is paying you for your work will only get you backlash, for each sale you'll make you'll have lost quite a few others.<br /><br />Sorry for being blunt, i would also prefer you would do music 24/7, but your style is not sellable, and the real hardcore consumers can't afford to pay you for everything all the time. This is just how our society is like in this day and age. Not much you or i or much of anyone in this earth can do about it. It's called capitalism, you were born in it, you will probably die in it, it's unfair to loads of people, loads others try to play it smart as often as they can, all you can do is get used to it.<br /><br />I will defnitly buy a couple of cds from you, for the sake of personal moral karma, since i really did love your work when i discovered it and still ocasionaly play it back again. But like Llort, i believe you're doing yourself a diservice when you prefer rather not let anyone listen to your sounds unless they pay you.<br /><br />I asure you there are others like me, even if they won't bother to come in here and claim so.<br /><br />But i concede to you in a point, as should Llort if he truly respects you as an artist: if you don't want your work distributed for free without your consent, we should not distribute it. I will delete all of NTT from my harddrives, and not share it with anyone ever again in the future until you inform us of otherwise. Not out of spite for you or your work. A certain disapoint for sure, but plain respect for your wishes.<br /><br />Good luck for your project, hope to see you perform live sometime in the future.Filipe 'ps' Cruzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15109510065869644936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-20394182872575183222009-05-04T03:13:00.000-04:002009-05-04T03:13:00.000-04:00"Even if I take it down from here, do you think th..."Even if I take it down from here, do you think that these people would've bought it instead? Do you think that my blog is the only place they could get it without paying? Are you going to hunt down each and every source where this material might be availible?"<br /><br />Yes I said this, but it's not really my excuse for doing it, I was just curious what your stance is to file-sharing overall.<br /><br />The rest you and brien has said is not even worth responding to.Llorthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07103641023912444304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-55872224977968500752009-05-03T00:25:00.000-04:002009-05-03T00:25:00.000-04:00oh, and to answer your other question, i never sai...oh, and to answer your other question, i never said that the label went defunct directly as a result of file-sharing. <br /><br />what i did say is that all of those potential lost sales due to free downloads directly correlates to money that could have come in and potentially allowed the label to sustain itself.<br /><br />it's not for you to determine whether there was sufficient interest in their releases, nor do you have any direct knowledge of why the label folded, because you are not friends with anyone involved, unlike myself.Lee M. Bartow (AKA Leech)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14518468440413579910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6682751349615048371.post-26246638064501343312009-05-03T00:18:00.000-04:002009-05-03T00:18:00.000-04:00Llort -
"'if they weren't downloading from me the...Llort -<br /><br />"'if they weren't downloading from me they'd be downloading from somewhere else' I never said that. That is just idiotic."<br /><br />since you have removed the original post from your blog, here's a quote from your original response to me that i am happy to share:<br /><br />"Even if I take it down from here, do you think that these people would've bought it instead? Do you think that my blog is the only place they could get it without paying? Are you going to hunt down each and every source where this material might be availible?"Lee M. Bartow (AKA Leech)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14518468440413579910noreply@blogger.com